Re: wishing for a tragedy
• Posted by Mana on May 31st, 2007
this post is written in response to birdman’s post.
Personally, I don’t want a tragic event to happen to anyone i know. Though sometimes I sympathise with those that have experienced tragedy and the outpouring of emotion is just crazy; in addition, though tragedy in and of itself is bad, it does bring about changes, some of which are positive like having had experienced suffering before. That is kind of a strange situation to be in actually; in that sense, i also want a tragedy to happen that impacts on me but i don’t want it to happen to anyone at all.
In addition i believe that understanding can come without tragedy, it just takes longer to develop. someone I talk to a bit - you know who you are i hope - i believe has helped me on my way to developing this kind of insight into tragedy. And one day, tragedy will strike, and strike hard, and I won’t like it, but I will be a changed person for it. So, I am not wishing for the tragedy to happen, instead, waiting patiently for it to strike, and treasuring my time before it does.
birdman, does that make you an emo? Not outwardly but on the inside? I consider myself to have something inside that is emo to some degree, that thinks that depression is actually a state that is only reached with understanding. I don’t think depression is healthy - it isn’t - and I prefer to stop depression - but - in that sense, being closer to death also gives more understanding, and so, being unhealthy is also desirable in that sense. I don’t know how to continue without sounding completely gothic; and that’s probably because those thoughts are completely gothic.
birdman, the time will come when you will have to go through tragedy and come out the other end. Though you are preparing for it, I don’t know if any amount of preparation is enough. But you’ll be stronger for it. And there will be friends and family to help you through it, and then people will be in the situation you are right now, and wanting to know you better. And it will happen to me too.
But is it really a gift? This brings me back to HSC journeys (oh dear why oh why do i get the feeling that i knew this would happen, that HSC english would actually be useful for something). The journey is the reward. or something like that. in that sense the negative aspects of tragedy are actually the reward, and it goes deeper than just saying that there will be change as a result - the act of experiencing tragedy, the act of suffering, is the reward, and not just for the knowledge. Is not the cross upon which Jesus died a reminder of suffering? And yet so many people, myself included, carry a reminder of the torture device around with them every day.
this definitely sounds gothic. maybe i shouldn’t be drinking adelaide water. and yet the idea of going mad is to that part of me, heavily romanticised.
Last lecture today Rei said something i thought was rather funny, but in retrospect it can mean a whole lot:
“I love my dung heap.” - Rei, in reference to the city of adelaide, in a lecture about cholera.
Though I am not sure she meant it at the time, I think the dung heap is representative of our current state (at this point i would make a quip - “south australia!”), and though we may love it because of our connection with it, it may be better to lose it.
anyway that’s enough for now. I seriously will go crazy at this rate. and though i do not fear the time when tragedy strikes, i will not go out of my way to make it happen.
So much needs to be said in response to this but I’m not entirely sure it’s appropriate to discuss it here.
All I can say is that tragedy, grief, depression is not something romantic, it’s not often dignified and although poetic means of expressing it arise, the ultimate ends to ‘madness’ or things like depression are not something to be desired (nor are they beautiful expressions of loss, they are horrific and their affect on others is terrible). Tragedy is something that changes people in unpredictable ways, to wish for one in order to somehow gain understanding of people is I suppose maybe an understandable logic but tragedy doesn’t always afford understanding, sometimes it just leaves confusion (and tragedy is such a personal thing that I don’t know that any one person could understand someone else’s feeling of loss anyway).
kc said this on May 31st, 2007 at 12:28 am
your post was fascinating to read and no doubt i learnt things from reading it! thanks for responding… i think a topic like this does call for some serious thought, and i’m happy that my post brought up some points that you could respond to so well.
i don’t wish for that tragedy to happen to others, although perhaps it wasn’t obvious in my post. perhaps if you knew me better, or you might have guessed, you’d believe i’m not a sadist. Instead, it seems more meaningful to me to express the meaning of an event that could make me grow up faster than I am now, while still keeping within the rules of what I believe is fair and beneficient (yeah I learnt this word from MPPD) to the people around me - and even this is regardless of whether I like them or not; I could hate the people around me and certainly wish the best for them, as you do.
So while the post was written while I was in a rather “down” mood, I don’t think it makes me emo, and I don’t think I have depression, either, before anyone asks - though you are welcome to think so if you like
in which case if you consider me a friend I’d expect a direct referral to Kingsley Whittenbury or a psychiatrist quick-smart, lol…
In response to kc, above, do you believe either of us was romanticising tragedy? If so, perhaps yes, I was. In my understanding of “romantic” I think about things that I desire… so in that sense, I was desiring tragedy, and yet I am sure now that is not anything I want to happen in my life - ever. I feel that to understand one other person better is one thing, but to understand everyone around you, as a single entity, is another - it requires a universal feeling, a feeling that is not able to be broken into different sections or catagories such that you might understand one person but not another. This is not only because every person’s experience is completely different, as you said, so it would be useless to try, but I feel it’s also because human grief as we all know it (or don’t know it…) is essentially the same. Whatever this universal grief consists of, some part of people we can all hope to understand through events in our lives, and those events trigger our own experiences which make us understand things in a way we were unaccustomed to before, and so, we grow up.
I hope I didn’t, or don’t, come across as someone who trivialises human tragedies of this world, which I am sure come thick and fast every second, even in a country such as Australia.
“birdman, does that make you an emo? Not outwardly but on the inside? I consider myself to have something inside that is emo to some degree, that thinks that depression is actually a state that is only reached with understanding. I don’t think depression is healthy - it isn’t - and I prefer to stop depression - but - in that sense, being closer to death also gives more understanding, and so, being unhealthy is also desirable in that sense. I don’t know how to continue without sounding completely gothic; and that’s probably because those thoughts are completely gothic.”
I believe this is what I was referring to when I spoke of romanticising the concepts. I won’t discuss or qualify it further, as i’m not sure what Mana means by it, but from my perspective this particular paragraph is at least slightly disconcerting.
kc said this on May 31st, 2007 at 6:22 pm
yeah. it was romanticising the concept of of depression/tragedy/unhealth and all those things we deem to be undesirable. I think i could attribute this to ignorance; by the time something like tragedy happens to me i won’t want it to - and the thoughts of it are much like the thrill-seeking behaviour of watching tragic movies or stories etc. and romanticising it.
I know reality is nothing like those tragic movies and stories but while reading those in the past i have always imagined myself in the place of the person and being in their situation. That would probably be where the emo thing stems from, but never having experienced it i can never really say with true insight that i want tragedy. but then experiencing it will make me feel those stories and movies etc etc, like birdman was talking about to be more real. but then they will really cut to the bone and i’m not sure i am ready for that.
As i said, the thoughts are quite gothic in nature and i’m not sure it is completely right to romanticise suffering (in fact i’m pretty sure it isn’t). so hmmm. i dunno.
may i also make it clear that I am not depressed nor am i wanting to be.
We all want change, because we were programmed that way; to never really be content with what we have.
Also;
The only time tragedy seems good is in retrospect.
That’s my 2 cents
Pantsman said this on June 2nd, 2007 at 12:47 pm
why in retrospect? of course it is never good during the event, but as me and jonathan have expressed on here it can “seem” good (though on further thinking, it is not) in looking into the future.
have you had a tragedy that seemed good in retrospect?
You should go check out an anime/manga called Fruits Basket, and you’ll see a few lesson things on learning about tragedy and stuff… it may be kinda over dramatized but the author has a point =P
Pantsman said this on June 6th, 2007 at 11:39 pm
OK, I’m not being insensitive or anything or skipping any comment on the tragedy part but…
YOU ARE DEAD! Mana, I am going to KILL you.
I don’t log in to this thing for a week and already… Die!
Rei said this on June 7th, 2007 at 9:07 am